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Pengo
2001-10-26, 02:46:00
"ATI are notorious for putting out piss-poor drivers for their cards and which pretty much ruin otherwise excellent hardware parts. And they've been doing it since the first time they started developing high end cards. Now they've set their sights on gamers, its looking like its only going to get worse unless they DO something about it. In fact, unless you're playing an OpenGL game (specifically Quake 3), it already has.

ATI's drivers are consistently bad for high end games. They don't fix their drivers at a level that is consistent with the meaning of the word, fix. And when they DO fix their drivers, they end up breaking more than they fix. Unlike nVidia (I'll get to them later) whose developer relations program leaks like a sieve (AE: what? You thought they sanctioned those leaked Beta drivers?), ATI's driver support program is practically non-existent. I swear they must be on some internal schedule that says they have to release drivers every full moon and then only on Fridays, assuming that Friday is the last day of that month."

Mehr unter dem Link

http://www.3000ad.com/soapbox/index.shtml

Ceiser Söze
2001-10-26, 08:58:12
Sorry, aber wer nimmt heute Derek "Laberbacke" Smart noch ernst? Der ist mindestens hundertmal schlimmer als Tim "Ich bin kein so guter Programmierer wie John Carmack" Sweeney. Bevor sich der über irgendwer beklagt (ob Hardware- oder Softwareentwickler), sollte er besser zeigen, dass er selber was drauf hat und mal ein spielbares Game rausbringen (scheint ja bisher nicht der Fall gewesen zu sein)...

Ceiser Söze
2001-10-26, 09:07:44
Hier zur Abwechslung noch die Meinung eines echten Entwicklers, Brian Hook:

I like Derek, on a personal level. I think he has a lot of admirable attributes, but I think he seriously needs to work on his presentation. To say the least =)

That said, his post -- all fifty six chapters of it -- can be condensed as follows:

"Drivers suck. ATI's drivers suck worse."

The rest of it is just general bitching and moaning, and to be honest, I don't have that much sympathy for the "we don't run well on this board so buyer beware" bit because a developer's JOB is to make sure their software runs everywhere (within reason, of course). If you have to use textured quads for sprites, then that's what you do. You can't expect new drivers to fix everything, because all too often your users have no idea what a driver is.

Consumers don't have much sympathy for games (and developers) that tell them, basically, their hardware and drivers suck. If a developer doesn't get that, he's going to be in a world of hurt unless he has a HUGE hit on his hands.

Last I checked, both UT and Q3 were outsold by Unreal and Q2 respectively. Software rendering fallbacks had a LARGE part in this.

There's running ugly, and there's not running at all. By and larger, the former is much better than the latter.

Speaking of Matrox...my main computer now uses a Matrox G550 because of its strong dualhead and rocking DACs. I wish NVidia would eventually make high quality boards for 2D work also.

Speaking of ATI...they win enough benchmarks to please the OEMs, which is what matters for sales. But I don't think they're ever going to get the enthusiast crowd until their drivers are solid. And ATI's drivers have never, ever BEEN solid, and so long as management doesn't take that seriously, it's going to always be their #1 limiting factor.

-Hook

Pengo
2001-10-26, 09:08:09
Brian Hook:

"I like Derek, on a personal level. I think he has a lot of admirable attributes, but I think he seriously needs to work on his presentation. To say the least =)

That said, his post -- all fifty six chapters of it -- can be condensed as follows:

"Drivers suck. ATI's drivers suck worse."

The rest of it is just general bitching and moaning, and to be honest, I don't have that much sympathy for the "we don't run well on this board so buyer beware" bit because a developer's JOB is to make sure their software runs everywhere (within reason, of course). If you have to use textured quads for sprites, then that's what you do. You can't expect new drivers to fix everything, because all too often your users have no idea what a driver is.

Consumers don't have much sympathy for games (and developers) that tell them, basically, their hardware and drivers suck. If a developer doesn't get that, he's going to be in a world of hurt unless he has a HUGE hit on his hands.

Last I checked, both UT and Q3 were outsold by Unreal and Q2 respectively. Software rendering fallbacks had a LARGE part in this.

There's running ugly, and there's not running at all. By and larger, the former is much better than the latter.

Speaking of Matrox...my main computer now uses a Matrox G550 because of its strong dualhead and rocking DACs. I wish NVidia would eventually make high quality boards for 2D work also.

Speaking of ATI...they win enough benchmarks to please the OEMs, which is what matters for sales. But I don't think they're ever going to get the enthusiast crowd until their drivers are solid. And ATI's drivers have never, ever BEEN solid, and so long as management doesn't take that seriously, it's going to always be their #1 limiting factor.

-Hook"

http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=15994162&sort=postdate

Pengo
2001-10-26, 09:15:58
Da war wohl einer schneller, ich habe mir aber immerhin die Mühe gemacht und die Referenz gepostet :)

"Hier zur Abwechslung noch die Meinung eines echten Entwicklers, Brian Hook"

Wer bestimmt wer ein echter Entwickler ist - DU???

Battlecruiser befindet sich schon seit Monaten in der Betaphase und die Previews sind vielversprechend.

Hier aus einem Review des alten Battlecruiser Spiels:

http://www.gamesdomain.com/gdreview/zones/reviews/pc/mar99/bc3k2.html

"Having traveled to my own heart of darkness and seen the horrors that reside there I must question just who is the insane person here? Maybe to create a game of such a large ambition requires someone that thinks a little differently than the rest of us and is more unconventional. I was sent to review a game with the intention of destroying it if necessary, however, during my journey I have learned that maybe the Supreme Commander's way is the only possible manner that this game would have ever seen the light of day in its current somewhat polished form. So I will linger a while at the BC3K web site and learn the genius behind the Supreme Commander's game development vision. I'm not going back to GDR Command HQ. Just haven't thought up a cool nickname yet... "

Ceiser Söze
2001-10-26, 09:28:21
Sorry, aber Derek Smart kann ich einfach nicht mehr ernst nehmen. Schau dich doch mal ein wenig auf seiner Site um oder lies seine Kommentare auf Voodooextreme - der Typ führt sich auf wie ein John Romero für Arme. Und das, obwohl er seit Jahren kein Spiel mehr veröffentlich hat, wobei sein letzter Titel wohl eher bei BigBrother - The Game als bei Deus Ex & Co. anzusiedeln ist (ok, der war fies: BigBrother hatte weniger Bugs). Ich bin vielleicht kein Entwickler, aber ich kann durchaus ein gutes Spiel von einem schlechten unterscheiden - wenn es so einfach ist, wie beim hundsmiserablen Battlecruiser 3000AD erst recht...
In meinen Augen ist Derek Smart einfach ein (schlechter) Selbstdarsteller mit viel zu viel Zeit. Sonst würde er ja an seinem achsogenialen Spiel arbeiten und nicht seitenlange Flames verfassen (denn das ist es: Ein Flame. Hooks Kommentar ist eine ehrliche und sachliche Meinung eines Spielentwicklers, Smarts Roman könnte in jedem 08/15-Spielerforum gepostet sein...).

Razor
2001-10-26, 11:49:09
Völlig egal, wer hier der bessere Programmierer ist...
*hmpf*

Aber mit einem hat dieser Battlecruiser (Derek Smart ?) recht:
"Mind you, in my opinion, there is NOTHING wrong with putting in game specific driver optimizations. What I do find questionable is that it took some brilliant investigative research and reporting to actually discover this. Not only that, ATI never told anyone that these drivers were optimized for Quake 3, knowing FULL WELL that Quake 3 was the de facto bench marking app. Think thats odd? Nascar4 and 3DStudio Max both crash under OpenGL. And GLmark causes a system hang. But no, lets spend time optimizing our drivers for Quake 3. Why ever not?"
Das unterschreib ich sofort !
;-)

Razor

Razor
2001-10-27, 17:47:04
Und hier noch eine kleine Reaktion darauf:
(gesehen bei www.nvnews.net ;-)
Hook speaks (http://boards.fool.com/Message.asp?mid=15994162&sort=postdate) - 10/26/2001 2:09 am - By: Typedef Enum - Source:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'll let Brian do the talking...This one is in response to Derek Smart's comments on ATI.

I like Derek, on a personal level. I think he has a lot of admirable attributes, but I think he seriously needs to work on his presentation. To say the least =)

That said, his post -- all fifty six chapters of it -- can be condensed as follows:

"Drivers suck. ATI's drivers suck worse."

The rest of it is just general bitching and moaning, and to be honest, I don't have that much sympathy for the "we don't run well on this board so buyer beware" bit because a developer's JOB is to make sure their software runs everywhere (within reason, of course). If you have to use textured quads for sprites, then that's what you do. You can't expect new drivers to fix everything, because all too often your users have no idea what a driver is.

Consumers don't have much sympathy for games (and developers) that tell them, basically, their hardware and drivers suck. If a developer doesn't get that, he's going to be in a world of hurt unless he has a HUGE hit on his hands.

Last I checked, both UT and Q3 were outsold by Unreal and Q2 respectively. Software rendering fallbacks had a LARGE part in this.

There's running ugly, and there's not running at all. By and larger, the former is much better than the latter.

Speaking of Matrox...my main computer now uses a Matrox G550 because of its strong dualhead and rocking DACs. I wish NVidia would eventually make high quality boards for 2D work also.

Speaking of ATI...they win enough benchmarks to please the OEMs, which is what matters for sales. But I don't think they're ever going to get the enthusiast crowd until their drivers are solid. And ATI's drivers have never, ever BEEN solid, and so long as management doesn't take that seriously, it's going to always be their #1 limiting factor.

-Hook

Haarmann
2001-10-27, 18:43:48
Ich wusste echt ned, dass 3ds max ein Spiel is... Auch wusste ich nicht, dass GL Mark ein Spiel ist...
Daher wird sich ein Spieler wohl nicht wirklich um sowas kümmern... Wer ProfiSW laufenassen will, muss die A mal erst bezahlen und B sollte er dann doch ne richtige Profikarte nehmen...
z.B. ne FireGL4 von ATI

Andre
2001-10-27, 18:49:25
Originally posted by Haarmann
Ich wusste echt ned, dass 3ds max ein Spiel is... Auch wusste ich nicht, dass GL Mark ein Spiel ist...
Daher wird sich ein Spieler wohl nicht wirklich um sowas kümmern... Wer ProfiSW laufenassen will, muss die A mal erst bezahlen und B sollte er dann doch ne richtige Profikarte nehmen...
z.B. ne FireGL4 von ATI

Und wiedermal - darum gehts nicht.
Wenn ich mich als Unternehmen nicht auf meine Kernkompetenzen konzentriere, dann krieg ich früher oder später dafür die Quittung.
Anstatt so einen Mist mit Q3 zu bauen, hätten sie sich lieber mal um DURCHGEHEND gute Treiber kümmern sollen !
Warum kann ich mit meiner MX ohne Probs mit 3D Studio Max arbeiten, bei der ATI aber nicht ?
Aber egal was für Argumente kommen, Du wirst sie eh so drehen, dass ATI gut dasteht.

Thowe
2001-10-27, 20:36:49
Wir reden hier über Consumer-Karten und nicht über Profi-Karten, das die nVidia-Karten den besseren ICD hat bestreitet keiner. Aber dieser hat auch eine gewisse Herkunft.

Also bleiben wir lieber bei Spielen und nicht Profi-Soft.

Aber woher soll ATI Treiberentwickler nehmen, diese wachsen nicht auf Bäumen schon gar nicht die fähigen. Also konzentriert man sich auf das nötigste und erzeugt ein rassiges Flickwerk und nicht echte Treiber. Deshalb ist wohl in erster Linie erst einmal nur ausbessern zu erwarten, aber solange der Gross der Spiele läuft - auf OpenGL - ist sie jeder 3DFX-Karte um Lichtjahre vorraus.